good picks. i have no idea. i mean, hopefully they will be good picks. in the meantime, we continue. 30 minutes in. hope springs eterl. forget about the nsa. it's the irs that should have you really worried. the tax man accused o seizing tens of millions of private medical records. now lawmakers are launching an investigation. and this comes amid anoth report tt the irs just canceled a controversial order for spying equipment. like secret cameras an office plans, coffee trays, ev clock radios. well, no wonder. more than three out of four americans now say theirs should not enforce the health care law. so do the overwhelming majority of you have it right? hi, everybody, i'm david asman. welcome. let's go in focus with steve forbes, elizabeth mcdonald, rich carl, rick unger and morgan

brennan good to see you all. ste, first to you. should we really trust these guys with our health records? >> of course not, david. their new name is now the internal revenge service. they've fundamentally blown the trust of the american people. and if a 29-year-old can blow the lid off of our most secret intelligence secrets, why in the world would we trust the irs? i don't know why there's a debate on this, david. >> morgan, most americans, 76% don't trust the irs to enforce obacare. are they right or wrong? >> understand why they don't trust the irs. have my issues with the irs. but looking at what obamacare essentially boilsown to, which is a massive tax ckage according to the supreme court last year, who else willnforce it? we're taing 47 tax code-related provisions and 17 x incases. this falls to the irs. i think the bigger issue isn't whether we should trust the irs. i think the bigger issue is the fact that we have murky, poorly

written legislation. i think if thers any kind of scandal that comes up around this, it's going to be becaus of the lemg slagislatiolegiatior >> i don't even like amacare, but should the irs be the one to enforce it? >> clearly ot. they've lost the confidence of the americanpeople, as steve points out. look, electroc medical records industry in the united states is $20 billion in size. there's a companyalled epic systems whose ceo, judy faulkner, they're in a position to get after that business. she's the o known presentative on obama's commission to look into medical records under obamacare. so i think this thing has many, many layers yet to come. it reeks. >> would you trust the irso go through your medical rerds? >> i'd feel odd being in the position of defending the irs, but i going to, and i hope they're wating. >> you just don't want to be audited, rick. face it.

>> yeah, believe me. >> ahough you'd have to wait for a republin to get that done. >> on the medical records thing, let's's not be too quick to judgment. this is a very bizarre lawsuit that wasroughtn in a southern california court. the plaintiff wouldn't even list his name. when his attorney was aed to comment on it, he said, well, i really don't know much about it yet. i need a few months. >> hold on a second, rick. do y blame a -- in this environment when the irs has been snooping everywhere, do you blame somebody for n wanting to come public with his name? >> well, sure because they're going to have to. you can't file a lawsuit and not have the defendant know whoou are. so of course, it's crazy. it's odd. and by the way, the way it was described in the reporting service was, quote, vague. it's odd. >> it's not vague and we'll be specificbout it later, but go ahead. >> on the spy equipment, just keep in mind the irs does have a criminal division that deals with pretty gnarly characters, medicare fraud, drug dealers. some ofthese guys carry guns.

let's, again, not jump -- let's see why they were ordering. and then finally, you guys would be going nuts if they created a new agency. you'd be complaining what? anotheagency of governme becau of obamacare? >> no, now because they have so overreached. i must say, rick, i'mery touched by your faith in the irs. i know that you have a longstanding love for it. but let me be specific about this complaint because the are specifics here. i'm going to quote from it. no search warrant authorized seizure of these records by irs agents, no subpoena authorized the seizure of these records. none of the 10 million americans were underer any known criminal investigation, and their medical rerds had no relevce whatsoever to the irs search. but the complaint suggests that the irs came in and took them anyway. >> we don't know the details of who filed this. i guess anderson. there's a lot of question marks over this lawsuit. i like rick's statement.

he's acting like mayberry rfd is working at the irs. they have a long list, and the irs makes no many mistakes in enforcing it. we don't know yet if they're going to be part of yourarks return. thas the real problem. the irs gets to dictate whether you have adequate, affordable coverage, the cost of your plan, the cost of your businesses or small business getting insurance from the company and in order to force a mandate which gets slapped against your household. not just your pcheck, but your entire household income. they've goto find out all of the income in your use. >> john, let us not forget. the irs was targeting iividuals for their potical beliefs. that was unconstitutional. meanwhile, they're hiring 16,000 more irs agents to chk in on granny to make sure they'sh's tg

her metamucil, is that right? >> the entity that blunted the ground game in a cpleea and more recently is now charged with enforcing this arguably unconstitutional law on the american people. let's add that the irs employees themselves e exempt from obamacare. this is a scandal, and i'm glad we're covering it. >> of course. ty were also exempt from their accounting from their own records as we saw from their conventions in which they spent millions. steve, the fact is thatnow -- i think rick ungar is right. if you agree with obamacare, you should let the irs. a lot of amerins don't agree obamacare. now it's 5 #5%. is this more proof it's becoming more unpopular? >> it is becoming more uopular because what itltimately means, as anything government thing mens, yu're going to pay more for less. you're going to be denied treatment. renovations are going to be halted or slowed down.

this is unworkable, especially in the spreadsheet tech era we' in. the idea that we must all be quiet serfs is preposterous. >> the real problem is how we govern ourselves. i don't like all the taxes in it. >>the fact is that theevil is in the details, and the more the public findsout about the details like irs involvement, th less they likeit. >> of urse. and i think thatat's the point. the irs is but a symptom in a larger cause here which is the legislation itself. it is wh the government has passed as obamacare. >> rich, that's the problem is that government is just getting -- the more government does, the more we realize how screwed up it is. >> yea and i really don't like the disetionary powers it has, particularly the irs. i mean, you can very well imagine the irs taking a closer look at companies whose ceos, you know, are conservatives and donanate more money to republics

than democrats. who on earth thinks that chick-fil-a is not going to be scrutinized mor than some fast food restaurant that donates to obama. >> this is the constitution. you're not supposed to target folks for theirolitic beliefs. thank you, gang it's not just uncle sam. private compans making it too difficu for governmen agencies to snoop on you. that's coming up at the bottom of the hour. first, he been called a a traitor. the whistleblower just taught us college is a waste of money. ♪ we don't need no education alec, for this mission i upgraded your smart phone.

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shift. i'm kelly wright. ee you at 1: eastern time. now back to "forbes on business." well, you know him as the guy who leaked the super classifified nsa surveillance program. did you also know that ed snowden is a high school dropout who was reportedly making, by the way, $122,000 a year. this ultraigh-security job and you say this is mo evidence tha college just i't worth theexpense. >> $122,000? i started out at $19,000 a year with a colleg degree way back at therack of down. listen, n't get an accounting degree and get a good technical and engineering degree and buy a house instead. listen, henry ford, john d. rockefeller didn't go to college. they d pretty well by themselves. >> rick, on the other hand, it

is true that the median salary of high school graduates is a lot lower than the median sary of colleggraduates. >> that's right. that's right. and i'm glad you pointed that out, david. listen, if society ever gets around to changing how we value people, fabuus. but in the meantime, we know that if you have a college degree, you will make 85% more over your lifetime than if you don't. and that's up from 74% more just in 1999. for whatever reason, it matters. yes, we are under some strain right now with college graduates. they'reaving a hard time finding jobs. but if you take all college graduates, they actually came out ahead aer the recession began. this will work itself out. as i say, if we start valuing people differently, great. in the meantime, you want to make more, you need the degree. >>sabrina, on the other hand, his guy, snowden, he drpe out of high school. and he then earned a ged. but he never got a colge degree. so here's a guy who's making six figures without a college degree. >> well, that's right.

cause we know that the high price tag doesn't necessily translate into high wall value. we do know that 53% of recent college gradtes are either underployed or unemployed. so things are looking a little bleak for some of these college graduatates. as e. mack suggested, if you dig a little deeper, the college graduatesre accounting degrees, couter science degr degrs, they are doing better than those ous like myself. in thend, we need skills, not just the ability to writa good essay. >> john,he fact is that most college stents don't graduate with degree with computer engineering. many them graduate with degrees with kind of negligible value. >> they do, b college education never offered anything of real-world economic value, but offers somethg differen we get away, we grow up, we make friendsnd contacts. and i a good economy, it helps us get a job. there's a reason that tuition continues to rise. parts and ds see the's a eal value to having a degree by

your name. i think we've got to recognize it'not the education. we get something entirely different of value from going to college. >> mike, there's another reason why coege tuition is going up, athat's the government, right? >> well, that's right. first of all,t sounds like john and i shar the same type of college expernce. but yes, you're absolute right. the reasonhy fewer graduates arearning a return on their investment or their parents' investment is bause government subsidies have raed the tuition of college. d at the same time, david,d, this is the worst economic recovery we've had sinc the depression. so it's harder to earn that return. >> but steve forbes, evenif a down economy, and we are owing at anemic rates, the market still provides some answers doesn't it? >> it does, david. and what we have here says more about our dysfunctional governnt thant does about colleges, if thisguy can make that kind of money and have that kind ofaccess. in terms of colleges, what you're going to see mo and more is a hybri online and a fewweeks on campus. and you see it in these business executive programs, harvard

business school and others. you do two to four weeks on cams, 12 to 16 weeks onour own on a computer. that's the ew of the future. you get the knowledge at a fraction of the cost. >> the may be provided by the marketplace, right? >> that's exactly right. i tend to agree with steve. and listen, any studies that say that you get more money with a college degree are skewed by the degrees that actually make the money. when you look at the college degrees that are liberal arts you're not making the amount of money that other people are making in thmarketplace. you know what? i'll tell you, micel is absolutely right. the way the coege system is built up, it is slamming the middle-class family and american family so hard. so those college graduates are not getting the jobs as they come out into t work force. >> rick ungar, there's no denying the middlelass is hit haest by these school costs >> they are. a couple quicthings. to make a blanket statement by saying anybody with a liberal arts degree is going to do well

is not true. >> i'm not going to support the "l.a. times" study to support the ta. it's true. >> go ahead, rick. >> yeah, i have a liberal arts degree. >> so do i. >> it didn't turn out so badly, so that's not true. >> listen, i have a liberal arts degree. i started out with just $19,000 a ar. >> you're not doing s badly. >> finish your point, rick. >> liz, let me finish. number two, we have to finish something. steve isn't auing against a college education. he's arguing about how it's delivered. and i agree with him. it's still a college-level education whether it's coming over the internet or n. that's fine. >> really quick lastoint from steve. stev isn't there a value just of finishing four-year - just the fact that you get a degree, sometimes that gives the people the confidence to go out into t work world, isn't it? >> what it tells the employer is you had the discipne to get something done. in the future i it's going to be more of a hybrid than a

tradition traditional. >> don'te afraid of thatind of change. >> more americans telling their boss, i qui it sods alarmin but the ford's flip side says it's great for the economy when we hear this. ♪ i -- i quit ♪ i quit we went out and asked people a simple question: how old is the oldest person you've known? we gave people aticker and had them show us. we leard a lot of us have known someo

who's lived well into their 90s. and that's a great thing. but even though we're living longer, one thing that hasn'thanged much is the official retirement age. ♪ the queion is how do you ke sure you have the money you need to enj all of these year ♪

quitting is good? welll, a nmber of u.s. workers saying "i quit" jumping more than 7% in april. that sounds like a b thing, but morgan, you say this is a

good sign for the economy. how so? this is the fli side. >> yeah, i think this is ver good for the economy. i think this is reflecting the fact thatore employed amerins are feelin confident about jobptions and we're starting to see that mobility take shape. i think this is also being seen in our current unemployment re. it's ticked up to 7.6% last month. and that's because more americans are feeling confident to go back into the jobs market fter recor numbers dropped out. i also think it's goodecause we'reing unemployed, the long-term unemployed number. people unemoyed six mths or longer, that number's dropped by about a million as well. >> steve, pe aren't feeling good about the economy. only 18% tnk it's doing well. 82% think it is fair or poorer. >> that's right. and pick your number, david. the fact of the matter is, this is a sloppy labor market, sloppy economic recovery. it's like a baseball player hitting .250. some games he'll look like he's babruth. others like he couldn't get beyond t-ball and little league.

a very sluggish economy. >> rick, you have to use a baseball analogy. good. go ahead. >> i'm not goingto use a baseball analogy. i simply wasn't prepare i will, however, say tha i think morgan has this one dead on right. the only thing that i would add to it is this. we're reaching the real hit on the baby boomers. a lot of these people who are quitti are actually retiring. so you have to factor that in. and that will continue now. in addition, it's always a good thing if people feel secure enough, that they can leave their job, they must think there's anoter job ou there for them. >> there's anoer statistic. labor participation. people actually partipate in the work force is verylow. >> that paits an accurate picture of how strong this economy is. it's only 63.4%. that's typally a number you see during a recession. what you want to see wen people leave their exisng job, david, is get another job that pays more. that's a sign of a healthy recovery. not what we're seeing no >> brina, is this good or bad news, the fact that people are

quitting? >> i think i fall somewhere in the middle. i'd like to know where they are. arehey in austin or d.c. where we're seeg growth or are they in places like detroit? if they are, i'm n as hopeful. or i should say more hopeful. bu i guess i would say i'd also nt to know what their college degree is, right? if they're coming out with a degree in accounting, then maybe they have more opportunities. >> he brings up a great point, rich. which is the fact that it depends where you are. i think growth i texas is good because it's primarily private sector. i think growth in washington, d.c., is not good because it's primarilpublic sector. >> sabra does bring up a very go point. and that's in a count as large as the united states, you always have to be a little wary of averages. bu don't underestimate in these statistics the effect of how easy its to get on stability today. you find a sympathetic doctor andne that willut you on disability for blood pressure that is too gh. so people don't have quite the incentive totay in the job marketplace that they did in the

past. >> morga that's a great point. theact thers a lot of people are just quitting becausehere are these government alternatives to quitting. >> i'm not sure i agree with that because if you look at the most recent numbers for people fiing for unemployment, those numrs are down at least ts week. i actually think that we're seeing pple quit because they're lookingo get other bs. >> steve, last word on this? >> disality's not unemployment, though. >> okay. >> there's a lot of discouragement out there, and people are doing things they wouldn't normally do if you ha a vibrant economy. >> bck to the baseball. and steve just can't avoid t baseball. and why should he, coming up on father's day. coming up, sorry, dad. but aew report shows we end less on you th on mom on those special days. special days. time for to even the

special days. time for to even the there is a pursuit we all share. a better life for your family, a bett opportunity for your business, a better legacy to leave the world. we have always belved in this pursuit, striving to bring insight to every investmt, and integrity to every plan. we are morgan stanley. and we're ready to work for you.

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and make youbusiness dream a reality. at legalzoom.c we put the law on your side. we are ba with a father's day stoc that will make you your dad's farite. ford. >> for this is the u.s. automaker that didn't get bailed out. it pay a nifty dividend and poised to benefit from the housing rebounds because of its pickup trucksdivision. >> youike ford? >> i like ford. cash flow slowing down despite the recovering economy. i do like the dividend. >> what about laboratory corp of america hdings? i've never heard o this. >> i know, this is one of the few independent labs that do all of the hospital testing and all the testing you'll need if you need medical services. great earnings growth, too. >> morgan, you like it?

>> i do. i think this is a really sod stock. >> everybody lis that one. that's it. have a wonderful father's day, folks. keep it here. the numbers block continues with another gre father, eric foley. "cashin' in" is next. first, the government, now are private firms selling you out? as the nsa scandal erupts, one phone company accused of rolling out the red carpet for uncle sam to snoop on you. emocrats accusing republicans ofblow the irs scandal ouf proportion. now there's evidence suggesting neither party is being tough enough. "cashin' n," asking the tough questions right now. hi, everyone, welcome to "cashin' in." our crew this week, yne rogers, jonathan, tracy, also jim. welcome,everybody. so you heard about the verizon being forced to hand over private phone records to uncle sam.